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But what about bad “hard fantasy”? (updated)

3 o'clock, October 13, 2005

In comments tangential to this post on Meghan’s LiveJournal, various theories of “hard fantasy” are proposed:

Tim Pratt: I always thought “hard fantasy” just meant fantasy that was emotionally realistic and had a well-developed setting. So no vague rolling fields of elfland or great destined earth-altering one-true-love. Fantasy where things are messy and Fate doesn't take care of everything.

Meghan: Hard SF has a much more specific program about grounding SF in “real” science. So, just hearing the phrase “hard fantasy,” I think of that same “rigor,” i.e. grounding the fantastic in actual folklore traditions and not riffing off other writers and creating a genre echo chamber.

Also Meghan: [Or] perhaps “hard fantasy’s” rigor is more about writing the fantastic in settings that humanity would actually inhabit — with pain, with class, with ugly people — as opposed to a boring (and ideologically problematic) ye-old-golden-middle-ages.

Niall Harrison: I think of Ted Chiang — i.e. treating fantastic premises with the rigour charateristic of hard sf.

So what would bad hard fantasy be? What would be the equivalent of the quintissential hard-SF clunker that not even an Analog reader could love? I think I’ve seen it in Meghan’s first version, stories of the middle-class American family inherits Scottish lakeside castle — little girl dreams of horses — water-horse drowns little girl variety. But what’s the “rigorous premises” version? The “emotionally realistic” version?


Update: Jeez — sorry, Niall! Too much time in the economic history section of Waterstone’s.

Comments

Oh good christ, yes, that first version abounds in suckness. And I really do think that's the closest cousin to hard SF in terms of the potential for suckness - "My story is good b/c the science/folklore is right and not derived from space opera/Tolkein imitators, therefore, story awesome." I think the other modes would be more prone to the traps of realism, "But my wizard is a drunk who lives in a slum/a bored college professor/a listless quarter-life-crisis wizard, so what if he doesn't do anything throughout the story, damnit man, this is REAL LIFE." Or, all rigor (rigour? perhaps I will be british today?) in the concept, lack of actual story/character/etc, which sends us back towards hard SF...

Basically, everything has the potential to suck. There is no escape. I am grumpy. We are doomed.

—— Meghan, 9:58 AM, Thursday, October 13, 2005

So, long as we’re doomed, we might as well have another drink.

—— David Moles, 10:12 AM, Thursday, October 13, 2005

Maybe bad Hard Fantasy would be stories that spend more time educating you on the folkloric archetypes of the tale being deconstructed (or, alternatively, the Indo-European ur-myth structure underlying it) than they do actually constructing characters and/or plot. I could see myself doing this. When I get pedantic it's usually about that kind of stuff.

I've got an ethnographer story on the backburner. If I fuck it up badly enough we may have a prototype.

—— Dave Schwartz, 10:14 AM, Thursday, October 13, 2005

Bad hard fantasy would be volkish Aryan kitsch.

—— Nick Mamatas, 10:28 AM, Thursday, October 13, 2005

Mary-Sue stories with a rigorous grounding in some flavor of neo-Paganism.

—— Tim Pratt, 12:07 PM, Thursday, October 13, 2005

I think hard fantasy would be any fantasy that has an internally consistent ("scientific") mythic/historical system to back it up, whether real-world or not. Rigorous world-building, in other words. Thus, LOTR would be hard fantasy, where, say, Tad Williams' War of the Flowers is not particularly hard.

Bad hard fantasy would be fantasy where despite rigorous world-building, the book was... well... bad. Not to name names, but Master of Five Magics might fit this bill...

—— Matt Hulan, 12:22 PM, Thursday, October 13, 2005

Bad hard fantasy would be a story in which the ending happens by magic.

And people are just getting my name wrong on purpose now, right? :p

—— Niall Harrison, 3:11 PM, Thursday, October 13, 2005

I posted about this at some length over at Meghan's, but in short I think that "hard fantasy" is a Michael Swanwick coinage. It's from his essay "In the tradition..." where, yeah, he invokes Hard SF, but in a slightly different way that y'all are. He doesn't offer a definition beyond saying that the term is the name he gives to "a congeries of works" that again, I typed in over at Meghan's and I ain't typing again.

—— Christopher, 8:07 PM, Thursday, October 13, 2005

I typed in over at Meghan's and I ain't typing again.

"E. R. Eddison's Zimiamvian trilogy (but not The Worm Ouroboros), Peake's Gormenghast trilogy, Lord Dunsany's stories, some Clark Ashton Smith stories, James Branch Cabell's Jurgen and a couple of his others, Hop Mirrlees' Lud-in-the-Mist--there's an implication that Tolkien and Howard belong on the list as well. Then he gets to much more fully developed thoughts on more closely contemporary stuff: John Crowley's Little Big, Mary Gentle's Rats & Gargoyles, Geoff Ryman's novella The Unconquered Country, Terry Bisson's Talking Man, Rebecca Ore's Slow Funeral, Robert Holdstock's Mythago Wood, Tanith Lee's collection Dreams of Dark and Light, Jonathan Carroll's The Land of Laughs, James Blaylock's Land of Dreams, Ian Banks' The Bridge, Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint, and Greer Gilman's Moonwise."

The secret is cut and paste, Christopher. :)


—— Ted, 9:31 PM, Thursday, October 13, 2005