© 2003-2006 David Moles

Chrononautic Log

«  Have I mentioned that I hate the Internet?
  Main  
More Internet weirdness  »

art

Workshops: Threat or menace?

7 o'clock, July 29, 2003

Following up the whole Wolfe|Odyssey fiasco, I notice a couple of interesting things. One is the idea that a workshop — maybe this comes from the boot camp metaphor — is supposed to simulate the environment that the students will experience in the Cold Cruel World out there. Viz, for example, Liz Williams:

What's going to happen when the harsh day dawns and Dozois, Van Gelder and company judge submissions from these students in accordance with their own beliefs?

It’s never occurred to me that the purpose of a workshop is to simulate an editorial response. Those don’t need to be simulated. You don’t need to pay hundreds of dollars for them. You can get them for two bucks by putting a story in an envelope. Right?

All right, obviously I’m being too literal. But it’s interesting that so many people seem to have jumped to make the connection between harsh critique and editorial rejection. Now, letting people know what to expect in The Real World is, I suppose, one of the legitimate purposes of a workshop. But people aren’t lab rats. You don’t need a cattle prod to explain DANGER, HIGH VOLTAGE — that’s what language is for, or so it seems to me.

Then there’s the general case, as put by the inimitable Mr. Ellison:

I know how to pull the plow, how to do that job, how to make it as rough and gritty and as close to the reality of the toughest job in the world as I can when I teach. It's been proved in the fire, because dozens of the people now doing the workshop instructing were people I helped beat into shape. I only wish they'd retained their passion! To instruct otherwise is to cheat, to take pay under false pretenses, to succor the talentless and time-wasting and self-indulgent, and to short-change the ones who look on the job as Art, as a Way of Life, as a responsibility to themselves, their talent, and the rest of the human race.

The connection is’t so direct here, but note “as close to the reality of the toughest job in the world as I can [make it]”. Note, also, “to instruct otherwise is to cheat.”

I haven’t taught writing. But I’d be very surprised indeed if there really is One Infallible Teaching Method, Adapted For The Meanest Understanding.

You see this in school boards fighting over the reading curriculum. “Whole word!” “Phonics!!” “Whole word!!!” “Phonics!!!!” Nobody ever stops to consider whether there might be two kinds of students whose brains are suited for two different learning styles.

(Actually, there are at least three kinds — the third kind will learn whichever style you use, or even if you don’t bother to teach them at all. I suspect that both sides of the argument are using this group to inflate their numbers.)

I’ve seen this in kendo, too. There are instructors who think, or claim to think, or talk as if they think, that the only way to teach somebody how to fight with a sword is to beat the bejeezus out of them, literally and figuratively, and if they’re not tough enough for it they should take up flower arranging instead. And then there are instructors who do a lot with a kind word and a smile and insist that you can make a swordsperson out of anyone if you take the time to bring them along a bit.

The funny thing is, both methods work.

So what do you think? Nick Mamatas’ cogent deconstruction aside, what are workshops for, anyway?


Follow-Up

Will Shetterly has a nice post about writing teachers that says something like what I tried to say above, only much more succinctly.

I’ve known good teachers near each extreme. All writers have to decide which sort of teacher is best for them, or whether they're better off learning by trial and error.

But, frankly, if you like the idea of studying with the first sort, your money would be better spent on a dominatrix.

Comments

I thought the advantages to a "pro" workshop like Clarion, Odyssey, VP, etc., would be that you get a chance to get advice from people who actually work successfully in the field, as well as, of course, networking.

(I say this with no actual workshop experience myself, of course.)

—— Jon Hansen, 9:43 AM, Tuesday, July 29, 2003

(Ah, crap, hit the wrong button.)

But you're right: just because someone's an expert in a field, doesn't mean they can communicate their knowledge to others. See that all the time in university settings: professor who's a giant in his field but can't get his undergraduates to understand what the hell he's talking about.

I don't know. Maybe that's why I've never made a point of attending one of these things.

—— Jon Hansen, 9:47 AM, Tuesday, July 29, 2003

A few months back, Keith Snyder posted an essay on How To Teach Writing that I really liked. The premise was that a teacher's job was not to pass judgment on whether or not someone could make it as a professional writer, but to help the student improve, whatever the student's current level of writing might be. Makes sense to me.

—— Rachel Heslin, 9:58 AM, Tuesday, July 29, 2003

Yup...that's my philosophy, Rachel.

Your point about teaching kendo via the gentle method and relentless ass-kicking is an interesting one, David. You're right that both can be equally effective in teaching craft. But do different sorts of practitioners emerge from the different methods of learning? That is, is there a difference in attitude and demeanor between those who learned one way, as opposed to the other?

Frankly though, when it comes to writing, I've never subscribed to the trial-by-fire method. My first workshop experience was a short story class at UT Austin, with the editor of the a renowned literary short story mag. She belittled people, read sentences out loud simply to mock them, and openly said, on the first day of class, "I see this class as an opportunity to discourage writers. I see shitty submissions day in and day out. There are too many people that think they can write when they obviously can't, and these people need to be discouraged."

Great...so I paid a semester's tuition to be shat upon, with the philosophy that if I put up with all the shit I'd be prepared to "make it". Well, no. I just came out of the class covered in shit. She didn't help me become a better writer, and she didn't prepare me for a career in writing (except perhaps the part about dealing with the occasional asshole).

—— Derek James, 1:23 PM, Tuesday, July 29, 2003

"Everywhere I go I'm asked if I think the university stifles writers. My opinion is that they don't stifle enough of them."

-- Flannery O'Connor, writer and apparent inspiration to at least one writing instructor.

—— Jon Hansen, 2:08 PM, Tuesday, July 29, 2003

Derek, my impulse is to say that the second type of instructor produces better human beings, but I think there’s a certain amount of self-selection going on.

I’ve heard quite a lot of Mr. O’Connor’s attitude — heck, I’ve probably even expressed it myself from time to time — but when I stop and think about it, it doesn’t really make any sense. It sounds like the real complaint is that a lot of perceived crap gets published — and if there’s anyone whose job it is to stop that, it’s the editors, not the writing instructors.

—— David Moles, 2:16 PM, Tuesday, July 29, 2003

(Note that my comments below have very little to do with the Wolfe/Odyssey stuff, and a great deal more to do with various people's responses to it.)

I've been waffling for days about whether to post about this whole thing. Your post (thanks!) gives me the opportunity to provide a concise version of my philosophy:

I don't see any point in being nasty to people. (In critiques or otherwise.) Honest, yes; nasty, no.

There are those who feel that honesty requires brutality. I'm not among them. "This story didn't work for me" is honest. "I'm afraid I didn't like anything in this story" is honest, though harsh (I'm beginning to come 'round to Mary Anne's view that there's almost always *something* good in a given story), but if you can't find anything worthwhile in a story, you should say so. "I found this story unpleasant and difficult to read, as well as personally offensive" -- honest, but perhaps could be put more carefully, in a way that the critiquee is more likely to hear and understand (because any critique that contains the word "offensive" is likely to be dismissed as PCism). "Your story was the worst piece of crap ever written and your mother should have strangled you at birth rather than allow such a misbegotten loathesome excuse for a human being to ever dare put ink on paper" is nasty. I don't see any reason for that last approach, but a lot of people seem to think it's the right way to teach writing, that anyone who can't take that kind of criticism could never make it as a writer anyway. But I'm not clear on why the ability to withstand personal abuse should correlate with the ability to tell a good story.

There may be people out there who can't learn unless their teachers are nasty to them. On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there who flourish under the influence of kind words and constructive criticism. In my view, it's not coddling to be nice to people; it's simple courtesy.

I guess I also feel that the best critiques are statements about the reader: "I felt X" or "This story seemed to me to be about Y" or "I was uncomfortable with Z" or "I didn't like this story," rather than "This story is X" or "This story is about Y" or "Z makes people uncomfortable" or "This story is bad." But I'm a lot more of a subjectivist in such matters than many (most?) people are.

—— Jed, 6:55 PM, Tuesday, July 29, 2003

Before this discussion goes much further it may be relevant to point out that Gene Wolfe has pretty much zero reputation for gratuitous harshness as a workshop instructor, and that all the signs are that the protesting Odyssey students were grossly overreacting to very mild critiques.

I winced a bit at some of the macho posturing in the Locus lettercolumn, but that has nothing to do with the facts of Gene Wolfe's case.

—— Patrick Nielsen Hayden, 9:43 PM, Tuesday, July 29, 2003

I don't think anyone here was directly referring to Gene Wolfe. I think by this point, it's been made clear in enough different places that the Odyssey fiasco was the work of a single, unstable, disgruntled student.

The fact remains, though, that there are plenty of people in workshops, and professionals hired as writing instructors, that *do* subscribe to the sort of approach we're discussing here.

During my six weeks of Clarion there were definitely both ends of the spectrum, and a few in between.

—— Derek James, 9:05 AM, Wednesday, July 30, 2003

The thing I think is amusing about the workshop as boot camp philosophy is, is that real editorial feedback is usually bland, bland, bland. It's more likely to be "not suited for our needs," "check our guidelines," and other non-specific phrases like that. Editors aren't too likely to send back a rejection slip saying that this is the worst piece of crap they've ever seen; too great a likelihood these days of getting a box back containing anthrax, a dead possum, a bomb, or all three.

Critics, on the other hand...

—— Jon Hansen, 10:06 AM, Wednesday, July 30, 2003

Well, there are the “Here are fifty common reasons why the submissions we get suck; they may or may not apply to yours” letters. But just as often, yeah, it’s “We wish you good luck with this tale, alas.”

I’d still take a course from Gene Wolfe, no questions asked. And it sounds like most of the Odyssey class behaved very well. Without having been there, there’s not much point in judging the specifics. I just thought it was interesting, the range of opinions about workshopping that the incident brought to the surface.

—— David Moles, 10:15 AM, Wednesday, July 30, 2003

I was just going to lurk (Rachel sent me a link and told me she'd lunk to my essay), but how many chances does a person get to converse with the guy behind Plush Cthulhu?

I think one of the problems with success is that it validates your *bad* ideas, too. So sure, Harlan Ellison has had a lot of success stories--he's helped people improve so they're publishable. But unless you're of a certain sadomasochistic mindset to start with, who needs abuse? I certainly wouldn't put up with it, if I were a student. Speak civilly to me or expect a flattening. I'm not your boy.

There's a master/acolyte dynamic in a lot of arts instruction that's completely unnecessary for learning. You're an adult; I'm an adult. You tell me what you think, I listen. I don't understand, I ask for clarification. When students are not children, the responsibility for exploiting the learning opportunity is theirs. Not the teacher's.

When I teach third-graders what multiplication is, it's my responsibility to get across that it's a shortcut to addition. So I keep reframing until it clicks. If it never clicks, it's my fault.

When I teach adults how to write better, it's their responsibility to drive the process. Screaming at them is idiotic--it's not my place. All I can do is keep reframing until it clicks, keep making them do things designed to make it click. If it never clicks, sorry. I did my best.

Anyway--interesting thread. And never start a post with both a flashback and a neologism in the first sentence.


Keith

—— Keith Snyder, 10:18 AM, Wednesday, July 30, 2003

Link, lank, lunk. Makes sense to me.

Nice essay, by the way. You’re right, a lot of students and teachers both need to get over themselves.

—— David Moles, 10:40 AM, Wednesday, July 30, 2003

Ah Keith, I put my pants on one tentacle at a time, same as everybody else.

—— Jon Hansen, 1:36 PM, Wednesday, July 30, 2003

Okay, I give up. I don't have a comeback for that.

—— Keith, 6:29 AM, Friday, August 1, 2003

If it helps, my wife usually just rolls her eyes and changes the subject.

—— Jon Hansen, 2:39 PM, Friday, August 1, 2003